Curse

Hells Fury · Aug 20, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

I'm trying to figure out the best balance betwen damage, attack speed and energy managment on endurance scythe for general use. I've read disscusions on pvx wiki for that and it wasnt very helpfull. I have 5-6 variations of that W/D scythe and still cant figure whats the best one. So i'd appreciate if u give me some tips about it.
Note that i use N/Mo icy veins smiting hybrid with strenght of honor, so enchs are included (so this gives room for mystic sweep but not necessairly) and Rt healing/channeling hybrid with splinter. 3rd one is generic n/rt sab healer. Btw i use mm only when area requires.
Starting point are 3 skills : W. Endurance ofc, Drunker Master (a have ALOT of alcohol to drink, so thats the only IMS/IAS included) and Power attack(because the spam). Energy pool is 20.
Optional skills are :
"I Am The Strongest!"
Counterattack
Body Blow
Mystic Sweep
Eremites Attack
Protectors Strike
Asuran Scan
Whirlwind attack
Chilling Victory (10 sec rchrg but dmg can be awsome)
Dodge This
By Urals Hammer
Air Of Superiority

Commonly used skills with this build that are not included:
Aura of Holy might- because its extremly difficult to energy manage with 10e cost , also can be striped or interupted while casting, and also in middle of battle 1 sec is to much recast it (assuming that u have 10e at that moment)
Flail, Burst of aggresion, Enraging Charge, Tiger stance- because drunken master outshines them all
Save Yourselves - I'm not looking for defence (also no survival skills like great dward armor or similar)
Wild Blow- 8 sec recharge
Pious Assault- 10e, lose ench
Interupt Skills - no need to rupt anything , because foes die too fast (unless area or boss requires)
Club of a Thousand Bears - 12 sec recharge
Zealous Sweep- 10 sec recharge
Lyssa's Assault - 10e gain for 10 e loss? also 8 sec recharge
Res Signet - I'm not going to RA : )
Ear Bite
Brawling Headbut/Low blow - althou good synergy, the dmg is low(70) and its touch ,5/4 cast

Also important choice is zealous, vampiric or sundering scythe prefix.

Please consider skills and give me your opinions (or skill templates). Thanks

Ripy rip · Aug 20, 2009, 02:09 AM // 02:09

aura of holy might boosts damage a lot. You say downside is energy but WE should bring you back up to max pretty fast

Perfected Shadow · Aug 20, 2009, 02:19 AM // 02:19

I'd use a staff of enchanting (and +20 energy if you want) to cast AoHM and always make a hero cover it. There is no one build fits all since you have to take into account the area you're going in.

**Marty Silverblade** · Aug 20, 2009, 06:15 AM // 06:15

If what I hear is correct, AoHM provides +damage, not +damage% as stated in the skill description, so it's a lot more powerful than it seems.

Daisuko · Aug 20, 2009, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

If what I hear is correct, AoHM provides +damage, not +damage% as stated in the skill description, so it's a lot more powerful than it seems.

Well, that's not /entirely/ true. +damage only helps to a point.

if you're inflicting 100 damage or less with your attacks, +damage is better than +%. If you're inflicting more, +% is better.

ex. 80 + 32 = 112 > 80 x 1.32 = 105.6
ex2. 120+ 32 = 152 < 120 x 1.32 = 158.4

as you can see, +% is better if you inflict big domoge. You should already have Strength of honor on you for +21~25 damage, and using +30~70 damage attacks, so if it WERE +% that would likely be better than +damage, but +damage never hurts. (I'll admit the difference is nominal, but +damage% is in fact superior in some cases.)

**Marty Silverblade** · Aug 20, 2009, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Are you sure that the +damage% applies to the entire damage packet, including +damage from SoH and attack skills? I always assumed it was just base weapon damage.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dama...ated_Ex ample

From the looks of that the +% such as customisation and inscription apply before the +damage stuff. As such, you'd need to be hitting raw 100+ for +damage% to be more worthwhile than +damage.

Daisuko · Aug 20, 2009, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

Are you sure that the +damage% applies to the entire damage packet, including +damage from SoH and attack skills? I always assumed it was just base weapon damage.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dama...ated_Ex ample

From the looks of that the +% such as customisation and inscription apply before the +damage stuff. As such, you'd need to be hitting raw 100+ for +damage% to be more worthwhile than +damage.

No no no, +% from inscriptions and such is only base, but +% from skills and effects is applied after damage calculations.

base damage - (AL - AP) x weapon +% = base damage to that target

from there, all effect + damage and +% is applied.

It's hard to say exactly how each skill stacks, but in my experience stacking order is FIFO system (first in first out) I.E. Strength of Honor + AoHM + weapon attack are considered before BuH (though I'm not sure if you do BuH and then AoHM.. though again in my experience I haven't noticed a significant difference.

For example, for this build (scythe warrior) I would honestly opt to not use an elite at all (if using consumables for +attack speed)

and use a build similar to this.
Res sig
Sig of strength
Sig of stamina
Dolyak
AoHM
BuH
Asuran Scan
Symbolic Strike

14 str 12 scythe.

damage calculation on an AL60 target would be as follows, to my knowledge.

For raw maximum damage able to be dealt, assume a crit.
(also assume a hero with 12 smiting with strength of honor on you)

70 damage for a 12 attr. crit (+15% +20% cust.)
+11 damage for 14% AP (strength) on an AL60 target.
+5 damage for sig of strength
+21 damage for strength of honor
+32 damage for Aura of Holy Might (at max rank)
+48 damage for Symbolic Strike (12 x 4)
= 187 raw damage before +% skills
187 x 1.25 = 234 x 1.75 = 409
(OR)
187 x (1.25 x 1.75) = 187 x 2.1875 = 409

for added lulz you can bring a spirit of infuriating heat or some such for double adrenaline and use symbolic strike on every hit (if hitting 2+ foes)

however, asuran scan only effects one foe, so the others would take nearly half damage.

however, BuH + Asuran Scan work together nicely, if someone puts Great Dwarf Weapon on you, that's 20 x 1.25 = 25 x 1.75 = 44 bonus damage.

(to simplify what I just said, you may have mis-read what you quoted to me, for actually checking that there is in the formula the Damage Multiplier, in their scenario Dark Escape, making the damage multiplier .5)

I'm not actually sure what the greatest single hit damage one could make, but if there is a greatest, it would be accomplished by a Me/D using 16 illusion and 12 scythe, arcane echo and arcane mimicry to get vow of strength and spirit's strength, with someone to put great dwarf weapon on you, strength of honor, use by ural's hammer, asuran scan, ect.

I don't recall precise calculations, but depending on how the skills stacked together, somewhere around 800~3000 damage on a single hit to an AL60 target.

Bobby2 · Aug 20, 2009, 12:46 PM // 12:46

In what scenario is Prot Strike ever 'optional'

Daisuko · Aug 20, 2009, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

In what scenario is Prot Strike ever 'optional'

PvE. gogo mobs that stand still and don't start to kite until they'd be dead anyway. fast activation and short recharge is nice, but conditional bonus damage that will virtually never trigger in PvE is bad.

Gift3d · Aug 20, 2009, 02:50 PM // 14:50

flail, power atk, 1/4 attack skill, random attack skill, random pve skill, save yourselves, endurance, holy might

for 1/4 attack, eremites is good for +damage but prot strike has same recharge of power atk for boomboomboom every 3 seconds

for random attack skill i usually use wearying strike for hm or chilling victory for nm

for random pve skill, usually pain inverter or asuran scan, sometimes brawling headbutt

Bobby2 · Aug 20, 2009, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daisuko

PvE. gogo mobs that stand still and don't start to kite until they'd be dead anyway. fast activation and short recharge is nice, but conditional bonus damage that will virtually never trigger in PvE is bad.

I'd take it for the fast activation alone, all the buffs stacked on the War in question make it worthwhile. That said, I hit the conditional pretty often. Eremite's never worked out since I -really- cbf waiting for mobs to ball up.

Hells Fury · Aug 20, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daisuko

PvE. gogo mobs that stand still and don't start to kite until they'd be dead anyway. fast activation and short recharge is nice, but conditional bonus damage that will virtually never trigger in PvE is bad.

In some cases rushing straight at the foe (lets say tree wardens) will make him blocked just for a second (enought to use power attack on him) then he will try go around you for squishy caster targets wich is ideal time to use prot strike to trigger conditional damage. Anyway i think 1/4 sec attack skill on a already slow scythe is great even if conditional damage is hard to get. Faster activation makes fast splinter usage so u can get more splinter ; )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

flail, power atk, 1/4 attack skill, random attack skill, random pve skill, save yourselves, endurance, holy might

for 1/4 attack, eremites is good for +damage but prot strike has same recharge of power atk for boomboomboom every 3 seconds

for random attack skill i usually use wearying strike for hm or chilling victory for nm

for random pve skill, usually pain inverter or asuran scan, sometimes brawling headbutt

I would never bring flail in pve. How do you cancel flail if foes start to kite (charrs for example)?
Btw what scythe prefix do you use? Zealous or Vampiric

**Marty Silverblade** · Aug 21, 2009, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

I would never bring flail in pve. How do you cancel flail if foes start to kite (charrs for example)?

Run Enraging Charge/Sprint if you want. It doesn't bother me so I don't run either. Also, good aggro techniques will help immensly with kiting.

Quote:

Btw what scythe prefix do you use? Zealous or Vampiric

Vampiric. WE should be enough energy management.

reaper with no name · Aug 21, 2009, 07:28 AM // 07:28

If you're not using AoHM, you shouldn't be using a scythe at all. The only time not to use it is for synergy with orders necros, in which case, again, you shouldn't be using a scythe to begin with (not when there's builds like the hundred blades warrior and the MSDB sin out there).

AoHM does not add +damage or +damage%. It adds to your damage rating. In other words, it boosts damage as if your weapon attribute was a lot (and I mean a LOT) higher. I'm not gonna bother doing the calculations (it's past 3 am where I am), but the amount of damage AoHM adds is insane. It turns your autoattacks into attack skills. It adds even more to damage than Asuran Scan.

If AoHM is too expensive for you and you're running WE, then you're doing something wrong, because you should have enough energy for that as well as any attack skills you might put on your bar.

The reason to use Protector's Strike is for the 1/2 sec activation.

Forget Chilling Victory. Protector's Strike, Mystic Sweep, and Eremite's Attack are the attack skills you want (due to their activation times). And hey, guess what? You won't need flail if you use those, either.

Here's a good Scythe Warrior build:
Warrior's Endurance
AoHM
Asuran Scan
Eremite's Attack
Mystic Sweep
Protector's Strike

Plus two other skills of your choice.

Now go have fun making my entire profession redundant, you meanie.

Hells Fury · Aug 21, 2009, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If you're not using AoHM, you shouldn't be using a scythe at all. The only time not to use it is for synergy with orders necros, in which case, again, you shouldn't be using a scythe to begin with (not when there's builds like the hundred blades warrior and the MSDB sin out there).

AoHM does not add +damage or +damage%. It adds to your damage rating. In other words, it boosts damage as if your weapon attribute was a lot (and I mean a LOT) higher. I'm not gonna bother doing the calculations (it's past 3 am where I am), but the amount of damage AoHM adds is insane. It turns your autoattacks into attack skills. It adds even more to damage than Asuran Scan.

If AoHM is too expensive for you and you're running WE, then you're doing something wrong, because you should have enough energy for that as well as any attack skills you might put on your bar.

The reason to use Protector's Strike is for the 1/2 sec activation.

Forget Chilling Victory. Protector's Strike, Mystic Sweep, and Eremite's Attack are the attack skills you want (due to their activation times). And hey, guess what? You won't need flail if you use those, either.

Here's a good Scythe Warrior build:
Warrior's Endurance
AoHM
Asuran Scan
Eremite's Attack
Mystic Sweep
Protector's Strike

Plus two other skills of your choice.

Now go have fun making my entire profession redundant, you meanie.

Redundant? I wish i could use Avatar of Grenth

i could do some serious stuff with that, but i dont' have dervish.

I'm guessing it should be easier to e manage AoHM with zealous scythe. But i think my problem is that i waste too much time positioning myself to activate AoHM aoe damage. I should just precast before rushing into mob.
I totaly agree with you about 1/4 (1/2) skills but i wouldnt kick IAS just like that. You can see difference with bare eye while using 1/4 sec skills with and w/o IAS.
I'll go for this
Warrior's Endurance
AoHM
Asuran Scan
Eremite's Attack
Mystic Sweep
Protector's Strike
with addon of power attacks and drunken master

Hells Fury · Aug 21, 2009, 06:15 PM // 18:15

K, so i've tried that build on hm minotaurs infront of ice tooth cave. Using +21 dmg from SoH and just AoHM (r10, 30%) i could get maximum damage of 86 with autoattacks (those were crit) . Lowest damage was around 30-35. Then i added judges insight. Max Crit damage increased to 110. Then i used asuran scan, damage went up to 150 max (no judges insight). Then Power attack (+38 dmg). The damage went up to 247 max, 299 with judges insight. The damage is awsome what can i say. I'll use this from now on.
Now this is a little problem i was talking about- > drunken master 5e, WE 5e, asuran scan 5e, AoHM 10 e, power attack/other attacks 5e = 30 e over my 20e pool. OK we dont have to count in drunker master, thats 25 e all. So i'll have to hit couple of autoattacks (empty hits, not much dmg ) to fill up energy for 1/4 attack skill button smash. If they are bunched up great, but hiting a lonely target (by that i mean not adjacent to any1) or the targets that kite often (Stone Summit in Slavers) is not worth all those buffs and its not energy efficient. And my situation is usualy like this, the faster i kill the less chance i'd get wiped , cause necros can't hold out to much pressure for long time from certain HM mobs (not talking about minotaurs, more like 2 groups of jade brotherhood). So its about DPS and its economy, not just huge damage boosting that takes time to apply. Thats why i was using from time to time just asuran scan+I'm strongest + attack skill buttonsmash to quickly kill single targets (if they were adjecent to some1 even better if not well..). It seemed energy efficient, fast with decent high damage (but not like the one with AoHM). Of course the solution is more microing, waiting before each mob, prepareing a bit, but who has time for that in fast pace rampage.
Just realized i double posted, sorry for that.

Bobby2 · Aug 21, 2009, 10:29 PM // 22:29

The question is what PvE skills to use. Most WE Scythers run AoHM-Scan-SY! (for good reason), you've already made clear you're hell-bent on using DM instead of Flail so I suggest you drop Scan for SY!. Makes those Necro's last a whole lot longer.

EDIT: minions are not party members.

Hells Fury · Aug 22, 2009, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

The question is what PvE skills to use. Most WE Scythers run AoHM-Scan-SY! (for good reason), you've already made clear you're hell-bent on using DM instead of Flail so I suggest you drop Scan for SY!. Makes those Necro's last a whole lot longer.

So SY is the way to go after all. But i can say goodbue with death nova/minions synergy, as i will now have level 13 minions runing around with +100 armor

K, ignore above, silly me...
ally is not equal to party member

Picuso · Aug 22, 2009, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

So SY is the way to go after all. But i can say goodbue with death nova/minions synergy, as i will now have level 13 minions runing around with +100 armor

SY affects Party Members only. Minions are allies. So, no, you won't have minions with 1XX armor.

mathiastemplar · Aug 31, 2009, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Didn't read all posts.. but here's what I use:
Aura of Holy Might! (Great dmg bonus)
Drunken Master. (good for drunk title AND ims/ias)
Warriors Endurance. (no need to explain)
Power attack. (low recharge+HUGE dmg)
Eremite attack. (great while balled up+low recharge)
Victorious Sweep. (little self heal+good dmg+low recharge)
Body Blow. (recharges almost instant+HUGE dmg+Good for when low on energy)
Asuran Scan. (Epic dmg!)

It's fluent and great dmg. I believe this is one of the best dps builds.
(was about to post this thread xD)
gl hf